Bukkit missing key items

Not all of those are abandoned, some are active, and keep in mind, some people still use Permissions 3 and GroupManager because they don't want to switch or are to lazy to.

Hell I'm still using Permissions 2. Why? Well back when I was going to migrate, Permissions 3 was a mess so we never did go there. All the plugins we're using are still supported for permissions 2. The other MAJOR reason is the lack of working converters. I tried one made by Nijikun that transfered to PEX or bPermissions but in every trials the permissions would lack people in it. With the amount of names in there, I don't want to go and fix each one. Server has had the same permission file for a year now (or so) and we did do some cleaning.

Even though you say that, some newly created softwares don't even work perfectly on 64bit OS. What gives? Since I got skyrim I had tons of crashes to desktop. I think the last patch fixed it though. When I searched the problem, someone mentionned it only affect 64bit windows.

How am I catering to the lazy?
I'm saying that just because it's default, doesn't mean everyone is going to use it, different people, want different things. How's that catering to the lazy?

Jesus, all of you stop arguing. None of you are bad in any way. You all have the right to choose how you want to run your server, and that's that.

Also, I do not agree with a unified Economy or GUI system. Built in perms? Great! Every server should use perms in one way or another! Economy and GUI? Hell no, not needed for optimal server operation and wouldn't be very good, even if it was just the bare basics.

Our server doesn't use economy plugins, doesn't use spout, and doesn't have a permissions plugin, though I still use permissions.yml to change some plugin defaults (changing some "anyone can access" defaults to "only available to ops" defaults for example)

No, Im not saying the Spout ppart is teken care of bukkit... Im saying bukkit takes care of a GUI standard. There are other things spout does then the GUI.

My focus was on a standard means to communit the GUI aspect of a plugin. Like my example earlier about HTML. different browsers that do different things, and different page generating software, but it all outputs HTML. HTML is a great example of how a GUI standard helps everyone.

You can apply that logic to economy plugins too. Example Towny, Payday, signshop are designed to work with certain economy plugin. If your server used that plugin, and the developer goes AFK(as the certain ones have recently) and the plugin stops being developed. these 3 plugins will switch to another economy plugin. HOWEVER, they will most likely not all siwtch to the same one. NOW, as a server owner, your balancing and linking several economy plugins to get your primary plugins to work.

This puts it back to the point of bukkit picking up permissions. A million permissions plugins and we as server ops had to link them all with a plugin that did that, if one stopped being developed now one plugins permissions isnt working. when Bukkit too on permissions, it gave all developers a base standard to develop from.

Do some servers not need permissions more advanced permissions then the minecraft ops file? No they dont, but the majority used it and was in pain. Just as Some servers dont need an economy, but the majority use it, and I can see the pain coming as cetian iconomy plugins are laying stagnant.

And they shouldnt mean unity, they should mean standard goto. Just as some plugins are still not using bukkit perms, but it gives the rest of us a united standard we can count on for those that do.

Basically... by bukkit taking it on, we are not jumping around linking permissions together as some permissions plugins stop working and others start. Bukkit permission was done to create solid ground for plugin developers to goto.

My point is that economies are obviously needed in general(not by all as stated), so they are the most logical thing to head to for standardization. AND GUIs are aboslutly a standard in development and I have no clue how Minecraft wouldnt have enabled these capabilities in the first place, but at least bukkit could.

Yeah, and in mbaxter's example people are still using 16 bit. But continuing to support that is not healthy for you or me... hell, if John Smith wants to keep using Atari DOS, he can. But for the rest of us at least the industry has a standard; 64 bit. His point is, the same as mine... fine keep using your old permissions system, but developers arent devloping anymore. These coders are barely developing their plugins.. .they are mainting them. You want to server the developers. What servers the developers(and as result most server operators) is a solid standard they can trust to be there.

I dont see any "arguing" or acusing people of being "bad".

And I just aboslutly disagree with your statement that standardize a GUI and economy are not needed for optimal server operation. Server operation is a direct result of the capabilities of a plugin. A plugin that uses a GUI or economy, its stable growth is a direct result of coders who concerned more with how the plugin executes and less with what economy or GUI plugins it needs to work on.

and just to be sure you understand... we arent tlkaing about server management GUIs... we are tlakign about having a GUI standard for plugin developers to make menus for our end players on our servers.

Anyway... like I said... I think this is a great discussion and everyone has been civil with fantastic points. I never understood the threads where you propose an idea like bukkit taking on economy and some kid writes up a blurb name calling and yelling 'hell no!' as though they had final say on how Bukkit does things.

I understood that, but that's not how Bukkit works.

Say tomorrow they release an update that adds the GUI API you are thinking of - what does this mean to the plugin developer or user? It means that in order to use the API the developer has to to write his own client.

Every developer that wants to add a GUI to his plugin would have to write his own client, and the users would have to trust this client enough to put their passwords into it.

From all the plugins I've seen, there are only a handful that are even slightly advanced - almost all of them are a few dozens lines long and just add a bridge between the Minecraft chat window and the Bukkit API.

The alternative it to use a common client, which is exactly what Spoutcraft is. The only way your GUI idea would work is if Mojang themselves added it to the official client and then Bukkit could add the hooks.

Not at all, why would they have to write their own client? ... does mcdonalds.com have their own client for you to view the website? No. You use Firefox, or chrome. But the person that made the website, used HTML for you to veiw it. Firefox and chrome are your Spoutcrafts.

Im saying Bukkit sets a GUI standard(in the lay-mans example above HTML). You still use Spoutcraft and the other GUI clients(or the Firefox in lay-mans terms from the example above), maybe the server doesnt have the spout jar, but at least you still get the GUI menus from the GUI enabled plugins. The developer simply writes his code to output the GUI based on the bukkit standard GUI(or the webforms and webpages in lay-mans terms from the example above).

by the way... MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone!

yes, merry christmas everyone!

Those of you talking about spout and spoutcraft, have you already read this post? http://forums.getspout.org/threads/new-years-resolutions.487

Sorry if someone already post it and I just didn't see it...

@Machete.Panda
Bukkit should not have a gui api because using the Official Mojang Client (InternetExplorer 6 in your analogy) you cannot see the GUI and then you have the problem of building things to the lowest common denominator.

So I think the point is, as long as such a standard does not exist in the client, one should not exist in bukkit.

I think thats the point... let people use the lowest functioning client if they want, but other options are there for other users. If a server owners wants to use all GUI menu plugins for their users, then its their choice. But the choice is there...

Besides, seems to be the direction the spout team is going in with their new Server mod intended to replace Bukkit(based on what minecraftYord just posted). I guess we will see what happens. Bukkit has been slow making a move on this(and other things), and new options are on the horizon.

The ability for developers to push menus and even models(talking past GUI) to the end user is critical to a strong development community.

@Machete.Panda
It also completely breaks the experience for someone with a vanilla client, because they would be missing many things. Thats like visiting a page where you need the Flash, but i cant install flash on my device. It just encourages client fragmentation, which is bad for all the mod community.

Well that statement I have to completely disagree with. Pivoting off the web example; If someone operating a web site doesn't want to provide plugins that have HTML and Flash for non-Flassh clients, then thats their choice. Its their Minecraft server... the player can move on to the next.

Bukkit not setting a GUI standard with a GUI language for plugin developers and GUI enabled clients(like Spoutcraft) just because some players wont bother to download a GUI enabling client, is irrational. Its as irrational as saying Flash shouldn't exist because not everyone has downloaded it. Even more irrational with the fact that, with a GUI plugin, people can still play on the server with the standard Minecraft client. Where with Flash sites, if you dont have it, you cant even see the page; nevermind the commands. These aren't perfect examples because flash is not open source(technically adobe owns the language you program a flash site in), where Bukkit GUI probably would be.

I feel like half the people in these forums don't read the damn threads. I think we made it abundantly clear you wouldn't need a specialized client. The regular client will still work fine. It would be an open GUI so any Client enabling GUIs could read the plugins that use the Bukkit GUI if they so desired.

As for the economy comment, kewl and agree. And if that's the case, also not only can you have patience or hard labor, but donations to Bukkit are helpful as well.

Firstly, point the their mission statement that says developing GUI enabling capabilities for plugin developers and client developers to us is "beyond the scope of the project". I honestly haven't seen this piece of information that you seem to have seen. Secondly, as I mentioned a million times before, this feature would not mean you need a specialized client. The Mojang client would still work fine on any bukkit server with out the GUI.