So... no tips?

Discussion in 'Bukkit Project and Community Feedback' started by Musaddict, Feb 21, 2012.

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    Musaddict

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    I have come to accept that the staff position adfly is inexorable, nearly to the point of immaturity, but... now we cant even earn a tip for plugin requests?

    This seems... fallacious.

    Let me be perfectly clear; I am not expressing my opinion due to any dependency of financial earnings through bukkit. TBH I haven't earned a single penny, and I'm happy with that. My quarrel is with the lethargic nature of the staff, followed by abrupt negative responses to the community. At this point the community is only being further-limited.

    Tips have been acceptable since the website's creation 13 months ago. Aside from enforcing a vague rule, I see no point in forcing the community to stop that now.

    This post has been edited 2 times. It was last edited by Musaddict Feb 21, 2012.
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    Lolmewn BukkitDev Staff

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    Are you referring to some post where a MOD said it's not k to do this?
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    Musaddict

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    EvilSeph Bukkit Team Member Administrator

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    This has been the policy from the beginning. mbaxter merely felt it would be best if we made this clearer so as to clear up the confusion.

    We don't care if you earn money from development, but you'll have to do it off of these forums. We do not want to deal with any drama associated with the involvement of money.
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    Musaddict

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    @EvilSeph Again with the "we dont want to deal with it", it's not your burden to carry. You aren't held responsible for financial drama. Aside from decreasing the messages in your inbox about an occasional financial slip-up, I see no point in restricting the whole community from thanking the other members financially.
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    EvilSeph Bukkit Team Member Administrator

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    I really don't understand what is so difficult to grasp. If we allow it to happen on our site, we are responsible for anything that goes wrong, whether we (or you) like it or not. You may not believe that it is our burden to carry, but it isn't your call to make. You don't dictate whether or not we get in trouble for facilitating the theft of money. We've already had several people complain that they asked someone to create a plugin for them, paid the money then never got the plugin. Apparently they felt that I was responsible for letting this happen.

    This policy, like our adfly policy is not going to change.
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    Musaddict

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    I guess the part that's difficult to grasp is the staff's lackluster enforcement, followed by extreme enforcement.


    adfly has no restrictions >> get pms about malicious ad links >> permaban on anyone who uses adfly

    tips are allowed for 13 months >> get pms about the lack of common sense >> put a stop to all tips


    Seeing this lack of enforcement, followed by extreme enforcement tells me that the entire staff is unpredictable. The level of professionalism decreases with every concern ignored, every rule that was not enforced, and to the point of tips; every vague rule that is enforced to the point of constricting the community.

    Also, the common ground I see with these enforcements is getting pms, which adds to the conception of laziness.
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    ZachBora

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    @Musaddict

    Think of the bukkit forums as a bar. Customers come in, have a chat, get drinks togheter, have meetins, etc. If a bar fight happens who do you think has to get involved? Either they call the bouncers or the cops. Problem is, as you stated forums don't really have physical bouncers that can kick people out.

    I know there has been money deals on the forums before, but I've only heard about people doing their transactions in private messages. That's like drug dealers in the bar's toilets. What bukkit did, is they installed a board in the toilet that says "NO DEALS HERE". That's all. It was already check, but now it's visible to everyone.
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    Musaddict

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    lol, interesting analogy. I guess it's true tho. The policy only covers advertising payment.

    This post has been edited 1 time. It was last edited by Musaddict Feb 21, 2012.
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    ZachBora

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    I just read it. Word for word it would prevent people from offering their talents/products for $. So people offering money would make other people in infraction...

    But this recent post could also somehow be linked to Curse. Because now Curse will give points redaimable for money for popular plugins. It sorts of turns us into a store.

    To go back to the bar analogy, it's like if you want to sell tickets to a concert inside the bar property, you need the bar's approval first.
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    Lolmewn BukkitDev Staff

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    Ice_Sword

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    Anyway, long story short. It's the staff's decision. If they wish to listen to people that want adfly allowed, great. If not, great. This forum, sorry for another analogy here, is like a shop on the street. If you don't like how they're running, you're welcome to leave and start your own. It's not like we're talking about a country and its policies here. It's a forum.
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    ZachBora

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    I like analogies, it's like that bible thing where they tell a story to tell us why we need to do it like so.
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    Musaddict

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    To me it's a monopoly. Bukkit is hands down the only major server software for Minecraft, and this website is the only outlet for its services. It would be illegal to create a website duplicating this website with new rules. I can't simply "start my own."

    In your analogy, the Bukkit forums would be a mall. They heard from a rent-a-cop that someone got pick pocketed, so all tipping in all stores became against policy. I can't simply go and make another mall with the same services saying "feel free to advertise, feel free to tip", cause, well, that would be near-impossible and completely impractical.

    This post has been edited 1 time. It was last edited by Musaddict Feb 21, 2012.
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    Ice_Sword

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    Be advised, this is my final post regard this topic on this thread. Otherwise we'll get into an argument, or, at least a mod will think we are. I, for one, am not looking for an infraction/editing of my post.

    I do agree, duplicating the success of Bukkit this late in the game is unlikely.


    You'll have to double check with a moderator/admin about this, but if you'd like someone to support you, add a donator button to your dev page. And add a piece of text that says, "If you'd still like to support me, but are unable to donate, please spend a moment of your time and PM me for the adfly download link." Hmm... that may not be allowed. As I said, check with a mod or admin. I'd be willing to support a petition that adfly be allowed if there is a "main" download link always available where that adfly link is. I think that's a decent compromise between the two groups. However, if the staff are still opposed to it, I believe, that in this particular case, that is still their decision.
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    Sleaker

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    EvilSeph Bukkit Team Member Administrator

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    Our policy is not changing as you have been unable to come up with any logical argument to our decisions without completely disregarding anything we say. You are simply wasting my staff's time by continuing to bring up issues without being open to discussion. So far, you have completely ignored anything we say: you quote the entirety of our posts when you respond, but based on your response, it is clear that you are either not reading what we are saying, or you are just ignoring our posts and continuing to push your point across.

    And if you have any doubt of this, see the following.

    I posted this earlier in the thread:
    You then posted this:
    Emphasis mine.

    Though I know this will be fruitless, I am going to repeat myself one last time. We have not changed anything up until now: it has always been our policy that we do not want to get involved with money and transaction handling, overseeing or even barely remote association. We try to stay on top of things and remove any topics that bring us towards this, but we can't notice everything. If someone reports the issue, it is dealt with immediately. If we come across the issue while browsing the forums, it is dealt with immediately. But if we are not aware of an issue, there is no way we can address it.

    Your want for compensation for your work is clouding your judgement. Adfly and services like it is remaining banned because you can't seem to understand that what happens on our or as a result of our site becomes our responsibility whether you like it or not.

    Until you can guarantee that someone won't click on one of the ads that says "Download here!" or similar (you can't), or that these services won't trigger an antivirus (and they do), adfly and services like it will remain banned.

    Until you can guarantee that a link someone posts goes to the location they say it does when using a url shortener (you can't), url shorteners will remain banned.

    Until you can guarantee that someone won't turn around and pursue legal action against Bukkit or that we won't have to spend our time fielding queries that ask us to get involved in payment disputes which we have no control over (again, you can't), selling or providing of services for monetary gain will remain banned.

    Whether we like it or not, a lot of things fall under our responsibility and, as such, we get to decide if we want to put ourselves in the position to be exposed to certain responsibilities or if we want to be completely hands off.

    Before you respond, please read my post carefully and do not disregard anything I say or you'll just be wasting my time and further discussion will prove pointless for both of us.
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    Musaddict

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    I will continue reading your post after I post this, but I would just like to say that YOUR STAFF allowed a sticky post that told your community to include a field for how much the requester is willing to pay. Your staff allowed that. I will now continue reading.

    This post has been edited 1 time. It was last edited by Musaddict Feb 22, 2012.
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    Musaddict

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    For one, all I have wanted is understanding. To me, and many other community members, are confused at your actions. All I have recieved from you is "it's bad", I say "it doesnt have to be, here's why", and your staff ignores me. I have just posted another thread that contains the PM that I sent to mbaxter that went more than a week without response (and still is without one).

    As for you saying it has been enforced since the beginning, it hasn't. According to your stickies, it was instead encouraged to tip people.

    Again, the staff is ignoring me. I dont want compensation! I say so in the OP of this thread... I do understand adfly. I also know that if you claim no responsibility, your are not responsible

    Like I said, I explain how ALL of this can be prevented in the PM I sent mbaxter.

    You dont ban URL shorteners...

    simple... claim no responsibility.

    You wont put yourself in the position to be exposed to certain responsibilities if you claim no responsibility and make it perfectly clear that the discussed features are used at your own risk.
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    EvilSeph Bukkit Team Member Administrator

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    After investigating this, I see that this indeed has been the case and apologise. However, this was done so mistakenly. We have never wanted to get involved with money transactions in any way, shape or for. This policy has been in place from the beginning, for the reasons I outlined above, and has not changed, despite one of my staff stickying a post that says otherwise.

    We're human, we make mistakes and I am sorry that it took so long to figure this out and rectify the mistake.
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    Musaddict

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    Well thanks for apologizing. :) I was not aware of this massive confusion, so I too am sorry for seeming brash. Just this plus being ignored over the adfly topic had rubbed me a little raw.
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Moderator BukkitDev Staff

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    re: Not replying to PMs. I did reply to your PM. Apologies that it wasn't the highly detailed, thorough deconstruction of your message you desired. I explained that you should PM me in the case of your discovering that adfly is guaranteed to be safe and you disregarded that request.
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    Musaddict

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    I disregard it because you disregard me. We both know that your request of guaranteeing it's safe is a cop out, so your disregard to break it down into detail is then juvenile.
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    Gravity BukkitDev Team Lead Moderator BukkitDev Staff

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    Seems the stance your taking on this is pretty hostile. I've earned money off of plugins, and have also gone through drama with users because of it. The bukkit staff don't need users angrily messaging them about how someone scammed them, that's not their problem nor should it be. If its not on the forums, it is out of their domain (and rightfully so) so you can't go crying to them if something goes wrong. That's a completely logical decision to make.

    I don't see why you cant just use skype or something to negotiate stuff like that. Putting it here only increases the chances of rage, spam, complaints, and unnecessary work that should NOT be required to be delt with in the first place.

    This post has been edited 3 times. It was last edited by h31ix Feb 22, 2012.
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    Musaddict

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    And now that I realize that the lack of enforcement was due to lack of communication, that makes perfect sense. Still doesn't explain (in detail) the adfly issue tho.

    This post has been edited 1 time. It was last edited by Musaddict Feb 22, 2012.
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    greatman

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    some months ago adfly links had fake download buttons on the advertisement. people clicked on it and ofc it trigerred their antivirus. For the protection of the community the staff decided to ban adfly links.
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    Nick Foster

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    soooooooooooooooo?.... where do i go now considering that bukkit forums now has idiotic rues..... anyone know where we could all go?
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    Gravity BukkitDev Team Lead Moderator BukkitDev Staff

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    Are you really asking on the Bukkit forums where else you should go because you don't like Bukkit?
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Moderator BukkitDev Staff

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    These rules aren't new (nor idiotic), please read this topic and linked topics to understand why.
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    RROD

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    I prefer a Bukkit with AdFly-free links. I hate them. In fact, anything that redirects like it does I hate. Tinyurl the same. You've only got to look at Minecraft Forum threads to see the number of requests for a non-adfly link.
    To make a few pennies it simply isn't worth it to your reputation you lose.

    Plus, you are forgetting there will be the BukkitDev rewards system soon (hopefully).
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